Name-Dr. D. G. Moses.
Father’s name-Drevium Moses.
Occupation-Principal, Hislop College.
Address-Nagpur.-

I am Principal of the Hislop College from 1941. I am connected with the Institution from 1926 as Professor of Philosophy.  The Hislop College was formerly founded by the Church of Scotland and is at present managed by a Board of Directors with headquarters constituted in Madhya Pradesh.  It provides graduate and post-graduate education in Arts and Science subjects and is not directly connected with Church.  Amongst Directors there are three members who are representing Mid India Christian Council.  At present there are about 1,100 students on the roll including women students.  There are about 100 Christian students now and the rest are non-Christians.  The Institution receives a block grant of Rs. 10,000 annually from the Church of Scotland; the other expenses are met out of fees and grant-in-aid from Government.  On behalf of the Church of Scotland a Missionary Professor Miss Ward has been appointed Lecturer in English.  We have an American Negro who is in charge of Physical education and another American who is teaching sociology.  They are paid by the American Methodist Mission.

The North India United Church of Nagpur carries on evangelical and other activities in Madhya Pradesh.  I am a member thereof.  They run schools, hospitals and a dispensary at Dhapewada.  For the last four or five years this institution has got no paid evangelists to my knowledge.  I and other members of this institution believe in the basic tennets of Christianity that every Christian is an evangelist a Missionary Christian.  

My ideas of propagating the Christian religion are as follows:-

“It consists in telling all and sundry what great things the Lord has done to you.  The motive is to express infinite thankfulness to God for what he has done.  The idea of converting people to my faith is not inherent in the concept of propagating my religion.  In fact I do not place any importance on mere numbers although if I come across a person who having heard me “bear witness” wishes to join my faith I would rejoice.  The Christian wants to exist as a member of the Church and not as a Christian community in the political sense.  There can be no ulterior motive in propagating the religion.  In course of my experience I have come across cases in which genuine believers embraced Christianity together with the entire family and also cases in which individuals wanted to become converts simply to marry a Christian girl.  The possibility of improper motives entering into the minds of Christians for converting people merely for the sake of numbers is there, as it is present amongst any other section of the community.  But this I would not classify as propagation of such religion.  If masses are induced to become Christians only to add to the numbers for secular objects and on false pretences, that is not propagation of religion.”

“If there is a body which declares its intention to convert 600,000 villages to Christianity with material resources then I would not call it as propagation of religion.  If such activities are checked by society I would say that the action would be justified as it aims to prevent growth of ill-feeling amongst various sections of community.”

Question.-If a body declares itself under the label of “aggressive evangelism” or “evangelical crusade” and uses such means as television, dramas, radios, mobile projection vans, the media of mass communication, recording, films, pictures, posters, illustrated leaflets flannel graphs, puppets, etc., and. works only in ore caste like Uraons, Mahars or Satnamis will you call it propagation?

Answer.-Yes, provided evangelism is understood in the sense explained by me above.  It would not be propagation if these activities are done with a view to convert 600,000 villagers in 10 years.

This is too much of a business method.  It is not a spiritual method.

In the year 1910 at Edinburough, World Council, it was recommended to leave to the Indians the evangelistic activities.  Last year at Evanstone it was decided that the Christian church is a world church and it is supra-national Evanstone expects that churches in India would be “rooted in the soil yet supranational in their witness”.

Supra-national does not mean de-nationalisation but only means that the State should not interfere with the creed that God is the final authority.  The Chairman read out “The Christian forces of the world though still a minority must on that very account quickly become a very organised and militant minority” (World Christian Handbook, page 57, 1952).  I do not subscribe to this.  In my opinion the Church in India should be one Church as everywhere and should be entirely under the control of Indians.  In my view the Church in India must eschew denominational differences and must become one Church.  I do not agree with Dr. Pickett if he thinks that a National Church in India would reflect the spirit of political Nationalism.  But I disagree with Rev. Anantrao. (See N. C. C., December 1954, page 544).  When he says that the Christians in India would be unifying if the foreign support is stopped.

I would like the Christian faith to absorb all the best in Indian culture and to express itself in Indian ways.

In other words there should be an Indian expression of Christianity.  If a school or a hospital is used mainly as an instrument for conversion to Christianity it is not evangelism.  I thoroughly disapprove of primary schools being started for utilising the fees for maintaining a church.  I disapprove of the policy of having Christi Raj or Masahi Sthan.
 

Name-Rev. Canon Kurian.
Caste-Christian.
Address-Nagpur, Cathedral House, Nagpur.

In reply to the questionnaire issued by the Committee I have filed a statement.  I belong to the Gondwana Mission. I was formerly in Mandla and have come to Nagpur in January 1955.

There is difference between conversion and proselytization.  Proselytization means only adding to the numbers.  We have got only one Pracharak.  The preaching does not mean attacking any other religion or the persons who are venerated by them.  If somebody were to say that unless he became a Christian he would go to hell it is not called propagation.  If the Government is helping the Harijans and aboriginals I would not call it as an inducement.  It would be good if they were to extend their help to needy Christians.  We have had no trouble from the Government officials.

The grants which we used to get from abroad are being gradually reduced.  This year we only got £ 200 and next year we may get less.  Religious instruction in schools should be left to individual choice.
 

Name-Shri Jal Gimi.
Occupation-Document Expert.
Address-Nagpur.

I was a student in the St. Francis de-Sales High School and St. John’s High School. I joined Morris College afterwards.  Both are Roman Catholic schools.  Bible history was one of the subjects prescribed for the junior and senior Cambridge examinations.  That was St. Francis D. School.  There was also catechism class meant for Roman Catholic boys.  That used to be the first period of the day.  Non-Catholics were not obliged to attend the class.  But I used to attend the class at the instance of my father.  He was a student of St. Xavier’s College, Bombay.  When I was attending the classes a lot of interest was shown in me by the Father.  The special interest went to the extent that the Father said to me that I should attend special instructions on Sunday, afternoons. I continued attending the “special lectures”, on Sunday, afternoons with a particular priest.  One afternoon as I entered the room of the Priest I saw his desk covered with huge thick volumes, presumably literature concerning Christianity.  No sooner. I stepped in then the Priest remarked “Jal, your Zoraster had no right to found your religion”.  However small I was in age, i.e. (about 13 or 14 years) something snapped inside me and I retorted by saying “Father, if my Zoraster had no right to found my religion, your Christ had no right to found your religion”. Naturally I was very badly caned.  The caning was so severe that while in the process I managed to run out of his room straight home and showed the blue and black marks on my body to my father.  Next morning my father approached the school authorities and without going into the demerits of the affair had my name removed from the school roll.  This was in 1928. I am running 41 now.  I was then admitted in St. John’s High School, where not a word of Christianity and its teaching was ever breathed by the priests in the institution.  There were quite a large number of Catholic boys.  There were no catechism classes in the school nor was there any Bible class.

In the St. Francis High School we were often told by some priests, “Boys, non-Catholic souls have no salvation unless they became Catholics,” because we were not Roman Catholics.

I personally and in fact my whole family have great reverence for Christ and of my daily prayers is the Lord’s prayer, i.e. (our Father).

I might also state their bright side and some of the very good points that I know concerning these Missionary activities which to my mind considerably outweigh the little unfortunate experience that I had in my school days.  The sisters of Charity, as they are called, have been known by me to do such good work and under circumstances which I feel I personally would never have the courage to perform.  One such instance is about a place close to Ahmedabad where I was told the lepers in the city were ousted from the Municipal area and not cared for either by the State or the local bodies.  These lepers got together and managed to have a mud and tatta shelter for themselves and did not dare to leave the four walls lest they might be punished.  The condition in which they lived must have been worse than that of animals.  For their bread and butter they used to hand a basket outside their huts to receive alms.  This went on for quite some time, till the sisters of Charity heard about this and went all out to help them, and make them live as human beings as they do now.  Those inhabitants still maintain their own religion.  There has been so far no interference with their original faith.  To the best of my knowledge I saw that institution three years ago.  On my enquiry I was told that none of the inmates have changed their religion.  My enquiry was not from the lepers.  It is managed by the Catholics.

I have never been to Jashpur or any other tribal areas.  My experience is mostly confined to towns, i.e. to urban areas.

There is another instance which has occurred just about a fortnight back when my own cook lost his wife after child birth.  The 10 day old child was a problem to the young father and his old mother who was practically blind and bent double with age.  He comes to me and tells me that his neighbours in the Dharampeth area have suggested that the child be placed in the custody of the Sisters of Charity in the local Maria Immaculate Convent, till such time as the child is able to stand on its own legs and run.  This man belongs to the scheduled caste and this reflects very creditably on the Missionaries that a Hindu should voluntarily take his own child for safe custody to people belonging to different faith altogether.  In fact what struck me then was, why, have not people in his own community, viz., the Hindus have a home for such cases.  I mean I have known of a very good institution here called the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh which is doing lot of good work in the country but unfortunately is paying very little attention to the social uplift and religious teachings amongst the lower strata of society.  If they take up such work I am positive that the Missionaries will find anything hard to do in this country.

To Mr. Tiwari o Mungeli.- I have never attended any Protestant institution for school or college, so I do not know whether boys or students are told by the Priest concerned that their only salvation is in being Christians.  I have attended church services in the Methodist Church in Nagpur twice or thrice.  I was the only non-Christian there. I went there with Christian friends.  After 1947 I have heard that people were converted by inducement but I have no personal knowledge of any instance. I heard this in bar-room.
 

Name.-Dr. E. Asirvatham.
Age.-58.
Occupation.-Head of the Department of Political Science, University of Nagpur.

Chairman.- When I come across such phrases as “aggressive evangelism”, “evangelical crusade”, “invasion teams” and such other form suggesting a drive, it strikes me that it may amount to propaganda.

Question.- Can these expressions be described as propaganda?

Answer.- Such a process, I shall take with a grain of salt.  In India I think these are likely to be misunderstood.  As a member of Christian church I would deprecate the use of such language or do not approve of such language which is likely to do more harm than good. 600,000 villages mentioned in the address of Alexander Mc.  Liesh of World Dominion Press may mean only that they went to convert the whole of India.

Since the termination of the war a great number of narrow-minded, bigotted and outlandish Missionaries have come out to India.  My suggestion is that a body like the National Christian Council should be asked to screen the Missionaries coming to India.

As I do not know the facts relating to Indonesia, Karens in Burma and.  Nagas in Assam I cannot say anything.  My feeling is that if there is any trouble like this, these people will go revolting as Nagas, Karens but not as Christians.  If it is proved in a Judicial manner with due process of law that it is exciting disaffection than legal steps should be taken, preventive measures may be taken.

I know the World Council of Churches and International Missionary Council.

Question.- I just read out and I want an interpretation of the following expression:-

“The need of particular churches to be rooted in the soil and yet being supranational in their witness and obedience.” Does this apply to the Church of England?

Answer.- Supranational does not mean anti-national or denational, I mean by obedience, obedience to God and not to Church.

Question.- Could you kindly explain the meaning of the passage, “the Christian forces of the world though in a minority should become a militant minority”

It only means to roll up your sleaves and be ready.

Question.- Will you kindly interpret for me this expression “But when there is a conflict of loyalty between Christ and the State, the true Christian has necessarily to choose obedience to Christ (National Christian Council Review, April 1955).  Would the word Christ include within the ambit of its meaning “the Worldwide Organisation of the Christian Church” (World Handbook, 1952, page 58).

Answer.- I cannot say yes or no.

I want a Church a free church in India without any authority from outside India.  In my life-time I would like to see a genuine indigenous church which I hope will have the uniqueness of our national character.  It will be loyal to every culture. I would like to incorporate the best in the spiritual and moral experience, i.e., of cultures of all lands.

I am in favour of Church unity, but I see many difficulties in the way.

The Union of Dr. Pickett as extracted at page 544 of December National Christian council Review, 1954, was read out.

I say that there can be no true and lasting Internationalism which is not rooted in sound nationalism.

Foreign help has stood in the way of church of India reaching Indian manhood.  Even if Indians are unified and become independent of foreign churches, it can receive foreign aid, I have no objection to receive money from Foreign Boards because no strings are attached.

If there is a United church in India there is no fear of its being utilised by any foreign power.  If it is organised on a democratic method there will be no fear.

I disapprove of what is said in Missions in Mid-India as translated into Hindi, viz., that Police officers, forest officers and teachers should be utilised for converting non-Christians to Christianity and that the responsibility of proselytisation should be put on their shoulders.  Any person whether he be a Christian or a non-Christian who uses his official position to give direct or indirect support to any religion is not true to the purpose and spirit of religion.

I am not in favour if hospitals are used for proselytising people.

To Shri S. K. Deshpande-

If mass conversion means converting of a large mass of people without any adequate preparation and the using of illegitimate methods I am not for it.

Will you like to have the propaganda of the type that unless you resort to Bible there is no salvation? My answer is: If a person says that Bible contains the word of God and solves ones moral and spiritual problem, as well as problems of the world I am in favour of it.  The Bible is not the only source, although as a Christian I believe to be so.
 

Name.-Shri B. E. Mandlekar.
Age.-59.
Occupation.-Advocate, Supreme Court.
Address.-Nagpur.

I am submitting the copy of my book, “Musings”, wherein I have studied the relevant questions which are being considered by the Committee.  The special pages to which I wish to draw the attention of the Committee are:-

(1) Pages 66 to 68.-A letter to Dr. Cholkar (Prohibition of Cow Slaughter).
(2) Pages 194 and 107.-Intended legislation regarding “Place of Religion in the National Scheme of Education”.
(3) Pages 111 to 117.
(4) Pages 297 to 298.-“Hindu New Year’s Day”.

In the present infant stage of our Bharat it is necessary that there should be no foreign influence in our national life.  In our political life we do not want any interference either from America or from Moscow.  In the social life, as well as in economics, we want to develop our own life.  In my scheme of national evolution I will not exclude any Indian for his economic, social or philosophic outlook the assistance which he can take from his brother, I would not exclude also knowledge received through books from outsiders, but as far as monetary or other help is concerned, it creates a slavish mentality in the person receiving, as it is the hand which gives, that controls.  My firm belief has been, from whatever I have read, that in matters of religious and philosophic thoughts Bharat has not to look for anybody for any help or guidance.  It is being abundantly proved that what was mentioned by Bharat philosophers is being inductively proved by Western sciences and applied psychology.  In our infant state, and particularly after the removal of domination by Muslims and Britishers from India, Bharat has not yet got full time to remove the rust or the ashes of embers of philosophic knowledge in books of Hindu philosophy from embers and experience of Bharat’s great swears.  To illustrate: If Swami Vivekananda’s teachings are carried to every home in India, I am perfectly sure that no one would look or listen to foreign propagandists in religion preaching contrary to Hindu religion.

2. I would like to learn the principles of Christian religion from a Christian Indian, but not from any foreigner, particularly if he supplies money to Indians-institutions for the teachings of Christian religion.  Because of their Indian background Indian Christians would be able to explain more correctly than a foreigner.

When the foreign Missionary goes to the aboriginals or to the untouchables of the Hindus be wants to exploit their ignorance and economic difficulties.  If a foreigner goes to this area to start a school or to open a hospital I would suspect his motive because be would be doing so with the support of foreign funds; because the foreign funds may be received for the purpose of conversion.  That means he should render help to poor people out of humanitarian motives but not to convert them, i.e., with ulterior motive. I do not wish that there should be any increase in the number of converts.

In my experience of elections I found that if I approach a Christian he could say that he would vote according to the instructions of the Christian Association.  This means that the individual Christian is under the influence of some institution.  If such a Christian is not under any obligation to any foreign body on account of monetary assistance, then I should say that there is no objection to his voting for anybody. I regard religion as a mode of social control and therefore if there is any influence working from outside in the region of religion I would suspect that some kind of force is working behind it.  What I fear is that this body will be separated from the bulk of the nation.

Schools and hospitals should not be used for proselytisation, particularly with the aid of foreign funds.

I hold that conversion to Christianity adversely affects national loyalty.

If there is a war between a Muslim and a Hindu the Christian will remain neutral, but if there is a war between Christian and Hindus the Christians will help Christian.

When the Christians did not press for a separate state for themselves they did so on the assurance that the Indian Republic is going to be a member of the Commonwealth.  I am prepared to absorb everything that Christianity can contribute through Indian Christian channels.  Any resident of India is a Hindu.

My answer to question No. 95 is to be found on page 113 onwards of the book “Musings”.

I am in favour of religious teachings in schools and colleges.  Today it so happens that although the adherents of one religion think that their religion is universal that claim is not admitted by others.  On account of this conflict there arises difficulty in teaching religion in schools.

By religious teaching of Hinduism I mean that a pupil should know something about Krishna, Ram and other great personalities who are separated by Hindus.  I would have no objection to teach the life of Jesus Christ, also his teachings.  If in the class there are Hindus, Muslims, Parsis, the prayers of the class would be the prayer of the majority. I think it is quite fair that minorities in India should offer the Hindu prayers.

I want that there should be text books containing the lives of Jesus, Zoraster, or Buddha and so on.

I would be in favour of special classes to be held on Sundays for teaching religion, in the different classes.  If the background of the religious philosophy is common, then the deity that is worshipped becomes un important.  The Secular State must legislate for all persons in India irrespective of their different religion, e.g., on bigamy.  This is good to all.

I am in favour of the State taking over the Maths with all their property and utilising it for social and charitable works.

To Shri Tiwari of Mungeli.

I came to know from the Nagpur Christians that an individual Christian is not free to vote for the man of his choice. I cannot mention names.  I cannot mention any instance of a person having become a Christian in my presence.  If a Christian Missionary finds that there are some young boys without any food or clothes, no borne, etc., and he takes them to some place of shelter and gives them food, education, etc., it is objectionable if he does it with the idea of converting them.  I do not believe that any such boy brought up by Christians will remain a Hindu.  I admit that there are people who are helpless. I have not seen street preaching for the last 25 years.  I do not object to medical relief being given by any Christian provided he does not get money from abroad and from religious institutions I would welcome any help, from e.g., the Ford Foundation.  There are many in Hindu society to render help to poor people.  They are of a religious character.  I know the Christian doctrine that one must love one’s neighbour and that helpless people should be helped.  But I do not desire that this sentiment should be used for converting people.  If a helpless Christian comes to be in distress I will help him as I would help a Hindu. I would not ask him to change his religion. I have no objection if a Christian helps a helpless Hindu.  I maintain that Schools or Colleges in India should not get any financial help from abroad, particularly from religious institutions. I do not object to Ramkrishna Mission receiving help from outside.  Ramkrishna Mission does not convert.  I have stated in my book entitled “Musings” that I do not belong to any political party. (Page 292).

I have no objection to dine with a Mahar and I have inter-dined with Mahars.  On account of the present social outlook inter-marriages with Mahars will not be favoured.  The untouchables (many of them) have become Christians not by conviction but by helpless conditions. I come across instances of about 500 untouchables and aboriginals having become Christians on account of their economic distress.  They are all from Madhya Pradesh and I came to know through the official records.  Even before 1947 the untouchables of a level as to enter the temple would have been allowed to enter the temples. I would not have allowed a man wearing dirty clothes and if he is a leper, to enter the temple.  Out of the 500 conversions which I have mentioned there was none literate, i.e., who have received primary education.  They were either such as could merely make a signature, but mostly who would give their thumb-impression.  If there are others who are educated upto matriculation standard or even graduates, have become Christian, it may be due to promote his further chances.  Even if a Missionary doctor serves the lepers for 10 years and then out of the feeling of gratitude a patient embraces Christianity, it is objectionable.  If an Indian Christian pastor is converted by an Arya Samajist I have no objection, if the pastor by conviction comes to believe in Hinduism.  I have no objection to convert him by conviction.  The population of Hindus in India may be about 28 crores, and the population of Christians may be about 80 lacs. I am not able to tell the present population of Madhya Pradesh.  The population of Madhya Pradesh before the merger was two and half crores.  The Christians may be about 4 to 6 per cent of the total population of Madhya Pradesh.
 

Name.-Rev. John W. Sadiq.
Caste.-Christian.
Age.-45 years.
Occupation.-Secretary, National Christian Council and Priest.
Address.-Nagpur.

I have read your article published in the National Christian Council Review of January 1930.  There is a word of difference between a man who respects Christ as a great man and the person who acknowledges Him as his personal Lord and Saviour.  The latter by joining the church participates and in some sense carries on the work, which Christ entrusted to be done.  Even if a man were to venerate Jesus as the perfect manifestation of God on earth still he would not be a Christian, if he does not associate himself with other Christians, as a member of the Church, involving baptism. I differ from Roman Catholics in regard to church and doctrines.  The Christian doctrine is only an attempt to interpret the life and the teachings of Jesus.  No one can be a Christian unless he regards Jesus as his Lord and the only Lord.  Anybody who is outside the church cannot be called a Christian.  A Christian is he who believes that the only wav of seeking peace is through Jesus Christ.

Question.- But Jesus himself said not everyone that calleth Me Lord and Lord will enter into the Kingdom of My Father but he that doeth the will of My Father which is Heaven. (Mathew, VI 21).

Answer.- He was only emphasising there the contradiction between those only calling Him Lord and Lord and those who did not do the will of the Lord.  Even among the members of the church there are quite a large number of people who are not truly Christians.  There can be and may be people who belong to the church by Baptism, but may not be true Christians.

In 1910 there was a meeting of the International Missionary Council in Edinburgh.  The two principal recommendations were that it was the duty of the Christians to preach the Gospel to the whole world and secondly it can best be done by co-operation and unity.  It was always understood that the church was more important than the Missions.  Many Missionary Societies have merged in the Church.  In 1912-13 the National Missionary Council of India, Burma and Ceylon, was started to give effect to the aforesaid principles.  Later on it became National Christian Council in 1923.

In 1928 there was second World Missionary Conference in Jerusalem and the third in 1938 at Tambaram in Madras.  In Tambaram the emphasis on the church was greatly stressed.  I will send you a copy of the Tambaram Conference minutes (abridged report).  There was a Regional Conference for South East Asia at Bangkok which was a joint effort of the International Missionary Council and the World Council of Churches.  Dr. Raja D. Manikam (also Reverend) is the Joint Secretary of the International Missionary Council and the World Council of Churches formed in the year 1948.

At the Conference in Bangkok it was decided that Christ sitting on the right hand of God reigns and the church owes it to the world and reminding…… etc. [Christianity and Asian Revolution (pages 90- 91)].  The church is concerned with Social, Economical and Political problems.  In 1952 at Lucknow there was a meeting of the World Council of Churches.  This was mainly in preparation for the second World Council of Churches meeting at Evanston, in 1954.  It concerned itself with the sphere of the entire life and activities of the church all over the world.  The International Missionary Council and World Council of Churches have executive committees to carry on their work.  We do not approve of mass conversions; even conversion of individuals for political motives is objectionable.  On this particular point I agree with Sardar Patel’s words (page 138, The Whole World is My Neighbour).  I do not like the word mass conversion.  There have been and will be group conversions.  Conversion means to raise their standard of life as a whole including spiritual.  If groups desire conversion purely for social and economic aims without regard to their essential spiritual life it is not to be encouraged.  There is a lot of misery, sickness and illiteracy among the people.  To take advantage of their holplessness would be un-Christian, Even if the Bible women preach in. the halls of the hospitals or for the purpose of evangelization there is no objection. I wont compel anybody, i.e., any patient.

Proselytising means simply adding numbers to which we are opposed.  Evangelism is conversion by conviction.  The Christian does not distinguish between spiritual and secular life.  There can be no divorce between the two.

If a preacher decries mother man’s religion and makes unfair comparisons between thou personalities venerated by the different religions it is not desirable.  If the preaching is that “we are all sinners and that we as Christians have found forgiveness in Christ, we have a right to proclaim this, just as anybody has a right to proclaim it if he has found a similar experience. I do not approve of decrying personalities who are held in reverence like Ram and Krishna.

Question.- Kindly interpret to me, “the need of particular church to be rooted in the soil, yet supranational in their witness a rid obedience (page’ 29, World Christian Handbook, 1952),

Answer.- Here the word obedience to Christ is through the Church and so Church, is indispensable.

The resolutions passed at the Ecumenical Council are not binding but they are advisory.  They are entitled to consideration and respect.

The expression “militant minority” occurring on page 57 “World Christian Handbook, 1952”, is an unfortunate phrase.  It only means energetic effort.

Karens in Burma, Amboyncse in Indonesia, Uraons and Mundas in Orissa, Jharkhand in Madhya, Pradesh, etc., have been agitating. I have not studied these movement. They may be due to political immaturity and social troubles.

The, idea of the chosen people occurring at page 75 of National Christian Council Review of February 1954 has no political, significance.  Supranational is to be understood only in a spiritual sense.

Question.- Will you kindly illustrate the meaning of supranational regarding the English Church?

Answer.- The Church of England is an established Church, but there are churches in practically every State in the world which together with the Church of England consider themselves as members, of one Church known as the Anglican Communion.

Question.- Is not the established Church of England the National Church of England.

Answer.- In England itself this does not mean that Church can override the State.

The nationalism which is referred to (at page 544 National Christian Council Review of December 1954) as a danger is a possible tendency that might show itself in a single united Church in India which will concern itself solely with national affairs and forget that there are fellow-believers and Churches in other country.

The mention of “a call to evangelise 600,000 villages in India in 10 years” which was issued by the National Missionary Society at Madras means the preaching of Christianity only.  The purpose was that the Gospel of Christ was heard by as many people as possible in the whole country.

Question.- Would you like the Mission property to be transferred to Indian Christians as the church property, as I understand, has already been done in some cases ?

Answer.- That is what we have been urging for the last 15 years.  Most of the Missions are only eager to transfer their properties in India to properly constituted trusts but are prevented from doing so because of the prohibitive cost of both registration and stamp duty.  We mean by “Indian trust”.  “incorporated in India and free from foreign Missionaries, i.e., foreign influence and personnel”.  We would suggest that the Committee should find a practical solution regarding the transfer of properties.  The National Christian Council is working towards an arrangement by which the foreign Missionary will come to India at the invitation of the Church.

To Mr. Tiwari of Mungeli.- The money which comes from abroad for abundant life movement in Bilaspur District is meant to give relief to the poor, so far as I know.  The work which is carried on by this movement is for the uplift of the people and has apparently nothing to do with Communism. I do not think that this programme will involve any loss to the people or Government. I have no objection to the Ramkrishna mission preaching to Christian people.  No Christian is under an obligation to exercise his vote…… under any direction of any church, i.e., every Christian has the right and freedom to vote according to his conviction.  The group conversions take place very much on the lines as for instance recorded about the story of the conversion of the large number of people on the day of Pentecost.  If I am in-charge of any religious institution where I have authority to use money for good causes, if a beggar or a person in need comes to me and I do not have my own money I shall be justified in using this money to help this man though I shall not be justified in giving that help on condition that the needy man accepts the Christian faith.  It is not true that all the money that comes from abroad is meant for directly evangelistic purposes.  Whatever money comes from abroad if it is for the good of the people should be welcome, whether it is received by the Christian institutions or non-Christian institutions. I will be the first man to stop that money which comes for the purpose of disrupting the national life of the country.  To the best of my knowledge no converts have been made under pressure or by use of force or by undue inducement.  The control of the affairs of the church must be in the hands of the Indian churches, but a foreigner if he is a member of that church may be assigned any responsibility which the church thinks proper.  I do not personally know about Jharkhand, but judging from experience of other part of India I would simply say that I do not believe that the Jharkhand movement has been backed by the church.  If there is an impression that foreign Missionary instigates the movement, that is a wrong impression.

To Shri S. K. Deshpande.- I do not know enough about the Jharkhand movement.  Those people who have been returned from the Jharkhand to the Bihar State Assembly or to Loksabha are not all Christians; in fact the majority are non-Christians.  Mr. Jaipalsingh is not an actively associated with the life of any church or even with the interest of the Christian community I do not know whether or not all the members of the Adiwasi Mahasabha are Christians.  Any slur cast on any religion will hurt people belonging to that religion.  In propagating Christianity I deprecate any decrying or abuse of other religions. I do not mind healthy criticism of other religions and of social evils. I am hearing for the first time that marriage is a sacrament for all Hindus.

The attention of the witness was drawn to page 2 of Bulletin No. 28 of Christian Home.

Question.- Do you approve of this attack on the Hindu Community?

Answer.- I shall not subscribe to the views.  I certainly do not approve of the tone of the writing.

Question.- Do not the Christians also have the system of marriage between Christians and Christians?

Answer.- Yes, because of the affinity of the religion.

Question.- Does the World Council of Churches and National Christian Council take part in politics?

Answer.- If I happen to be a pacifist I may not join either India or any other country in war.

My loyalty to God takes precedence over my loyalty to any other thing, including the nation, as I believe that the church is the body of Christ.  Therefore my loyalty to the church as the body of Christ is greater, though I do not believe that such conflict is necessary.

Our Anglican church is affiliated to the church of India, Burma and Ceylon.  Whatever help comes to this C.I.P.B.C. comes from Great Britain.

2. Mr. Jacob.- The Resolutions passed at the Bangkok Conference are published, but I do not claim to have read all of them.  I subscribe to the idea expressed in the Bangkok World Missionary.  Council Conference reported on page 95 of “Christianity and Asian Revolution”, in the sense that the Bible is relevant to the conditions that exist in this country, i.e., in India and other countries of Asia.  By Hindu nationalism I mean the movement that is contrary-to the ideal of a secular State.

On the 24th September 1955.- The Lucknow Conference of December 1952 was organised by the East Asia Secretary of the World Council of Churches.  It was a study conference in preparation for the second Assembly of the World Council which was held in Evanston in 1954.

The National Christian Council of India has no relation with the World Council but they work in association with the International Missionary Council.  Only six churches in India are members of the World Council and of those six churches only five churches are members of the National Christian Council.  The Church of India, Burma, Pakistan and Ceylon, the United Church of North India, the Church of South India, the Mar Thoma Syrian Church of Malabar, the Orthodox Syrian Church of Malabar and the Evangelical Lutheran Federation of India.

Hindu nationalism is not condemned because it is against the tenets of Christianity but it is due to social ideologies.

Question.- Is it not a fact that the conference held at Lucknow condemned Hindu nationalism and communism only on the basis that it was opposed t o the tenets of the Christian religion?

Answer.- Hindu nationalism and communism were condemned because they run counter to the ideal of the secular State which in the judgment of the people who took part in the conference is in accordance with the tenets of the Christian religion.

Question.- Is it not a fact that Christianity teaches only those who believe Christianity are, with God and the rest are not?

Answer.- The opinions recorded at Lucknow conference are not the doctrines of the church.

Christians believe that salvation can he achieved only through Jesus Christ.  They do not know any other method.

Question.- Was not this conference organised in order to find out means and methods to carry out intensive and extensive methods for convene?

Answer.- It was not a conference to make plans for evangelization.

Evangelism was one of the subjects at the Lucknow conference.

I also adhere to the opinion that loyalty to Christ is above loyalty to the State.

Question.- Does not your loyalty to church come in conflict with your loyalty to the nation?

Answer.- No.

Question-Chairman.- We have claimed exemption from the operation of Madhya Pradesh Trust Act under section 36 (b) and as we are not a trust.  Most of the Missions have applied for exemption from that Act because they are not trusts for the benefit of the general public.

I hand over this written statement bearing upon the questionnaire for the consideration of the Committee.  This should be treated as a confidential document so long as the Mandamus procedure is pending.
 

Name.-Dr. I., S. Williams.
Caste.-Christian.
Occupation.-Arch Priest, Indian National Hindustani Church.
Address.-Bombay.

I am a Doctor of Divinity.  I got this degree from the Indian Orthodox Church.  Its headquarters are in Madras (South India).  It is a registered body.  I shall send a copy of the constitution of this body.  Archbishop Rev. K. C. Pillay was the founder of the Indian Orthodox Church.  There are 18 churches in South India and one church at Bombay with a congregation of 200.

One of the chief tenets of the church is Apostolic succession Archbishop K. C. Pillay was consecrated Bishop by a synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church.  The church in India owes allegiance to the patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church in Antioch.  In the Bombay church the Anglican litergy with consequential amendments, is used, as most of the members originally belonged to the.  Anglican church.  The right, of managership of the Church is still in dispute.  Originality it was an Anglican church and the property of the church vested in the Secretary of the State. I was a member of the Anglican church and so I and my congregation came into possession of that church.  Later on we declared ourselves independent of the foreign church administrative system.  The whole congregation without any dissident voice adopted the Orthodox faith.  There is no foreign organisation which controls our church.  The Indian organisation is known as All-India Federation of National Churches and all the independent churches in India are affiliated to this central body.  None of the ecclesiastical dignitaries such as Bishops or Archbishops receive any salary.  They all do honorary work.  The building in Madras belongs to the Orthodox churches and is controlled by Rev. Dr. Pillay.

Those who are members of our churches claim to be National Christians; they am excluded from and deprived of the membership of the established churches.

We hold the doctrine that Jesus Christ is the personal Saviour and the only Saviour of the world and that baptism is necessary for salvation.  We have preachers but not paid ones.  They have their independent means of livelihood.

There was rally of the National Christians held at Jabalpur on the 4th and 5th June 1955. I presided over this conference. I do not believe in proselytization but I believe in conversion which means real change of heart.  A Nationalist Christian does not believe in the control, domination and authority from any foreign body.  It is because the foreign domination destroys initiative in the first place and tends to denationalise them. I say that the Christians with few honourable exceptions in India are not nationalistic.  The loyalty of the Indian Christian to a foreign church implies a loyalty to the State to which the church belongs.

The Anglican Missions which are working in India believe that the ruling sovereign of England is head of the Church that is wrong because Christ is the head of the church and not the ruling king.  The Anglican Missions working here also believe that the English Sovereign is the Defender of the Faith of the church.

I use the word “ordinary” subject to correction.  The Indians who become members of the American church are influenced by American culture.  To a certain extent it will affect Indian Christians’ loyalty to his country.  To give an illustration if there is a war between America and India the Indian Christians who are under American church will not enthusiastically support Indian Nation.  In the recent years I have noticed a trend in the attitude of Indian Christians in favour of Indian culture.

I presided over the rally of the Nationalist Christians held at Jabalpur on the 4th and 5th June J955.  The resolution No. 3 passed at the rally disapproves of the continuance of the denationalising foreign church administrative system in Free India and considers it baneful to the national interest of the people in India in general and the Christians in particular.  I do not mind a foreign Missionary working in India on the invitation of the Indian Nationalist Church, but I disapprove of a foreign Missionary working here under the control of his foreign church administrative system whereby he imports into India his denominational system.  The foreign church administrative system results in the denationalisation of Indian Christians.

About six foreign Missionaries had come at our invitation and helped in the work of the National Church.  They preached and went away.  All they said was that they had come to India to share their faith with the Indian Christians.

Some of the methods adopted by the foreign Missionaries are not spiritually sound.  They offer economic advantages to the poor as well as to the needy.  The people gather round them with the hope of being sent abroad for education and even for sight-seeing.  It is an inducement.  I would not like any educational institution being under the guidance and administration of any foreign Missionary, because no independent country in the world will entrust the education of children to any foreigner.  I dislike proselytization in any form. I will not approve and do not approve of hospitals being used for this work.  I have no personal knowledge of hospitals being used for proselytization.

Our movement has been opposed by the churches controlled by the foreign Missionaries.  Opposition is mainly from church workers and other stooges of Missionaries.  We are welcomed by non-Christians, 'both by Hindus and Muslims.  Even in Jabalpur an Aryasamajist, Hindu Mahasabhaite, welcomed our attitude in this matter.  They did not mind expression of my faith that Jesus Christ was the only Saviour. I have not converted any one in the sense of baptism, but I did preach Jesus Christ and it is possible that people got converted in their hearts.  There is a genuine respect for Christ among the non-Christians.  Even when our foreign friends visited Bombay, 2 from America and one from Canada, the reception was accorded to them by non-Christians and that was attended by Jains, Aryasamajists, Parsis and others and Ramkrishna Mission and the Sanatani Hindus.  The audience mostly consisted of non-Christians and Hindus.  Only if we are freed from the domination of the Alien Church Administration would Christians be welcome in India by all sections of people.  I can give an instance of how non-Christians appreciate the Christians and their religion also.  When there was a funeral of one Mr. Kale, a Hindu, a Kshatriya by caste at Sonapur, Bombay, there was performance of rituals by Hindus, and speeches were also delivered, and before cremation I was requested to address the people, as also to offer a Christian prayer; and I did so very willingly, and there was an atmosphere of friendship between non-Christians and Christians.  This will always be so between Christians and non-Christians if the foreign control is withdrawn.

To Mr. Tiwari of Mungeli-

My birthplace is Muradabad. I was educated in a Hindu school at Sitapur and in a Christian college at Lucknow and Lucknow University as well as Bombay University.  Perhaps my grandfather or great grandfather became Christian.  They belonged to the Sikh Community.  My father was in the service of an American Mission and when.  I was about 10 years old I came to understand things.  After that my father did not continue in service.  We are 3 or 4 brothers.  Only 2 of us were learning in school.  I was also reading in the High School.  All my domestic expenses used to be incurred by my father.  I used to work in the Methodist Church as a boy at Sitapur and Lucknow.  I used to attend the St. Paul’s Church in Bombay.  I never visited Jabalpur before the rally in 1955.  I do not know whether the name of P. D. Yadav is in my register.  I was a guest of Shri E. Benjamin while I was at Jabalpur.  There were 3 members in Shri Benjamin's house.  There were two females and one male.  As by correspondence I knew Shri Benjamin I stayed as his guest.  I know Rev. Bishop Pathak of Nagpur and also that Mr. Benjamin is a member of the C. M. S. Church at Jabalpur.  I do not know if the church in Jabalpur is under any supervision of the Bishop.  I do not know that Benjamin was ex-communicated from the church.  I conducted the divine service in St. Luke’s Church at Jabalpur. I do not know that Shri Benjamin had taken forcible possession of this church.  All I can definitely remember is that Mr. S. D. Singh attended the rally in Bombay.  There was no admission form circulated in any area on behalf of my church.  I knew Shri Benjamin for 2 or 3 years through correspondence I personally saw him for the first time at Jabalpur in connection with the rally.  Even though a person may be the member of the All-India Federation of the National Christians and president of the Committee he may be a member of the C. M. S.; there is no objection.

Question.- The Missionaries work in India under their respective foreign denominations.  Do you think that this is right or wrong?

Answer.- It is not right.

The All-India Federation of Nationalist Christians in India is not a denominational institution.

Question.- Are you a Christian?

Answer.- I am not prepared to answer this question.

Question.- Have you read the Bible?

This question is disallowed.

Our Federation is an organisation of independent local churches.  There is an independent church in Nagpur, but not yet affiliated.  The name of the church is the Nagpur Independent Church.  Shri Rajaram Sontake is the Minister of the Church. I do not know if he was a pastor of the 1840 church.

(Mr. Tiwari says that he was a pastor of 1840 church but was removed from this office).

The Federation has no doctrines of its own; all that insists upon is that the church should be independent, nationalist, free of control of any outside church and that it should be Christian.  Some of our members are foreigners and we have fellowship with foreign churches.  We have received no monetary contribution from any foreign church.  I do not get even a pie as a salary from my congregation.  I did not get even a gift.  I had invited 5 or 6 foreign friends to Bombay.  I paid a few hundred rupees which were raised by contributions.  In the first party there were 4 and in the second party there were 2. One was from Canada and 3 or 4 from U. S. A. There is a committee representing the All-India Federation.  The president of that body is Shri R. S. Modak.  He lives in America.  He is the President of the Indian Federation.  He is not paid by the Federation and he maintains his livelihood there.

Question.- The visitors who came to India were the members of the Federation.

Answer.- They were friends.

We do not want any foreign control even supranational.  I am very positive that there should be no outside control in any form.  Even in India our Bishop will not control the church, but only the Panchayats will.  I preach every week in the open air.  No non-Christian ever obstructed us.  We distribute copies of Gospel and tracts written by ourselves or the tracts approved by our panchayat.  Schools should be controlled by local panchayats in consultation with the Education Department of Government.  I got the degree of D. D. in 1955. I did not go to a foreign country through the Indian Orthodox Churches, although I had been to foreign countries.  I went abroad for 2 or 3 months. I have ceased to be a teacher for 3 years.  When I was a teacher my salary was about Rs. 500 per month.  This Bombay Education Society was founded by Europeans.  I served for 15 years.  This society was founded mostly by Anglicans.  I joined the Federation in 1952.

To the Chairman-

There are 80 lakhs of Christians in India and every Christian is an evangelist and therefore it is not necessary for any foreign Missionary to come to India for evangelization.
 

Name.-Shri R. P. Tekem.
Age.-31 years.
Occupation.-General Secretary, State Adiwasi Sewa Mandal, Dharampeth, Nagpur.
Address.-Dharampeth, Nagpur.

This Sewa Mandal was started in 1947, Shri Lalsham Shaha, M.L.A., is the President of the Mandal.  There are seven members in the Mandal.  We do welfare work among the Adiwasis and we attend to their grievances in education, employment, land and any harassment by Government officials.  In Berar there are instances of Police officer having beaten the Adiwasis and harassed them in other ways (the urine of their wives was put in their mouth).  This occurred nine months ago.  I complained to Government and an enquiry was made.  From 2nd September 1955, I toured Berar and I found that there are no complaints of harassment by the police.  The Adiwasis are not Christians.  Among the Adiwasis, even the Christian Adiwasis do not depart from their customs except in their worship.  Christian Adiwasis, at the time of marriage, observe their old customs at home and then they go to the church for marriage.  Among us there are no Sagotra marriages.  That custom continues even among Adiwasi Christians.

Among us even if an Adiwasi goes to a Hindu temple, a mosque or a Church he does not become a Hindu, or Muslim or Christian.  A Christian Adiwasi will marry a member of the Adiwasi community only.  An Adiwasi will marry an Adiwasi, whether he is a Christian or not because they worship their own God.

There was an instance in Jashpur State.  The girl was in Government High School.  Her original name was Nilima, but in the school register her name was changed to Elsie.  She discovered the change of name when the school certificate was given to her.  It was Government High School, Jashpurnagar.  Her people for two generations were Christians.  As she may be going to a Church she was considered to be a Christian, but in reality she continues to be an Adiwasi, because she was born in the Adiwasi community.  The Adiwasis are neither Christians nor Hindus.  In the Tribal Welfare Schools Ramayan is taught to Adiwasis and the Government is trying to convert them to Hinduism.  This can be found out from the 1951 census.  In the census report there is a remark that the number of the Adiwasis is being reduced on account of their conversion either to Hinduism or Christianity.  Adiwasis regard that they are neither Hindus nor Christians.  Their customs are different from those of the Hindus or Christians.  There are now no conversions from the Adiwasis.  The methods used for conversion to Christianity are not objectionable.  In my opinion there is no conversion unless an Adiwasi gives up his caste, viz., the caste of a Gond.  If he remains in his caste as a Gond, he will continue to be Gond even though he may embrace Christianity or Hinduism.  We are not Hindus because we eat pork and beef.

I object to the teaching of Ramayan and Mahabharata, if the Government wants to give the knowledge of Ramayan then let it give the knowledge of all religions, i.e., Hindu, Christian and Muslim.

To Mr. A. B. Shinde of Jabalpur-

If an Adiwasi becomes a Christian, Government withdraw the concession; but if he becomes a Hindu the privileges are not discontinued.  When the Christian Missionary tries to help any Harijan he is doing it in the same way as a Hindu or a Muslim does.
 

Name.-Shri Gangaprasad Nandkishore Tiwari.
Caste.-Christian.
Age.-26 years.
Address.-Mungeli, Madhya Pradesh.

I belong to the Church of Christ and that is the only one Church in the whole world. I was baptised by a priest who belongs to the Church of Christ at Katni.  The Church itself is known as Church of Christ. I was converted in January 1952.  I go to churches of any denomination and I preach the Gospel of Christ.  Besides this, I am a journalist and publish the paper named “Sawadhan”. I conduct a paper called “Sawadhan” in Hindi.  The proprietor of the press is Shri L. M. Patale.  There are 500 subscribers.  There is a fund consisting of the subscription of the paper and some private offerings.  I get my pay from this fund.  There is no definite salary.  I draw the amount as I require.

I was not offered any secular inducement such as a high Government post or marriage, but the only inducement that appealed to me was that I was admitted into the Kingdom of God and that I would attain peace of mind and become a son of God and I would be delivered from sin.  This I believed and I became a Christian.

While I was a Hindu I used to go to temples and I asked the priests pointing towards the idol whether there was God there.  They said that they were only earning their living.  Then I went to one Pandit who said that I should go to temple and find God there.  Then I went to Bombay and I got employment in a film company.  I was a cine-story writer and an artist, i.e., an actor.  For writing the story I had to study the sacred books of the Hindus, Muslims and Christians.  I knew Bhagwad geeta as I was Brahmin.  But I did not know Islam, so I went to a Moulvi and he gave me some idea of Islam.  Then I began to study the Bible.  In the course of study I was interested in St. John’s Gospel.  The great difference which I found between the Christian and Hindu religions was in the basic idea that God himself goes in search of sinner through Christ, whereas in Hinduism man has to seek God and he does it through digging wells, building Dharmashala and going on pilgrimages and distributing charity, alms, etc., I went also to some Missionaries.  They were indifferent towards me, under the impression that I was in need of monetary help.  At Allahabad I met Rev. Pal Das, Secretary, Tract and Books Society.  I asked for baptism and he said that I should stay there for 15 days so that my sincerely would be tested.  Then I went to Cawnpur, Lucknow Jhansi, Itarsi, Bhopal and ultimately Katni.  Here I met brother Paras Masih who was pastor in charge of the Church of Christ.  Here again I asked for baptism.  His answer was that I should stay for a week after which I would be baptised.  After this I was baptised.

When I went to Mungeli, my native place, I was much harassed by my friends and acquaintances.  I was editing the newspaper “Sawadhan” At that time it was a political paper.  One Babulal Kesharwani filed a criminal case against me stating that I was not the editor of Sawadhan.  The complaint was dismissed in the court of Shri G. B. Singh. I have not accepted service under any Mission in India.  I joined the theological seminary at Janjgir.  With the help of some friends I began publication of the “Sawadhan” It was stopped due to financial stringency.  I was invited to preach in many churches in Madhya Pradesh, United Provinces, Vindhya Pradesh and Bombay and South India, i.e., Deccan.  Now with the help of friends I am able to keep the “Sawadhan” paper going from last year.  The Hindus used to regard satnamis, and others as untouchables, their shadow also was avoided by them.  That was the state of things I found when I was a Hindu.  In my own house there were 12-13 satnamis as servants, but they were treated as animals.  They were not even allowed entry into temples.  Among the Hindus the vast majority, i.e., 99 per cent of people disapproved of a man embracing any religion out of conviction and they always try to disgrace him and put all difficulties in his way.

I go to my house out of love for my people but I am treated in a different way.  Conversion to Christianity has in no way changed my loyalty to India and culture.  In fact I began to love those whom I had offended before.

I am acquainted with many of the foreign Missionaries in Madhya Pradesh and I have lived with them and I never found that they tried to influence the mind of Christians against their own State or alienating them from the loyalty to their country.  I never staved with any Roman Catholic Missionary.  Last year I visited Manendragarh and I preached and distributed copies of tracts and gave my testimony.  Some people there were so offended that they tried to catch me alone to do violence.  I reported the matter to a police officer at Manendragarh and he told me that there was a certain Goonda involved in the affair and criminal case was pending against him. The police officer assured me that no harm will be done to me.  I went to Chirimiri to preach in the church.  But there I was shadowed by the police as I told them that I had gone there not only to preach but to baptise.  Two constables of the L. I. B. objected to my activities there and they brought me back to the station.

While I was preaching at Itarsi in the open air there was an attack, on me and my friend, made by the partisans of Hindu Mahasabha or Arya Sabha.  There were two or three Municipal members who forced me to get out of the place where I was preaching.  The other gentleman with me was Rev. A. Aslum and Andrias from Jhansi and some Bible students from Allahabad.  There was also propaganda conducted in the Newspaper “Jai Hind” and also “Yug Dharma” Nagpur, against me.  Some eight or ten people who had been recently converted to Christianity complained to me that they were called by the police and threatened as to why they had embraced Christianity.  In Takhatpur the tahsildar and some members of the Gram Panchayat Committee brought pressure to bear upon me to get reconverted to Hinduism.  After Anjordas gave his statement before the Committee at Bilaspur he said to me, on my enquiry, that he had not been prepared to give evidence but at the instance of Mr. Varma he came forward and gave it.  At Bilaspur I along with some Christian friends including women preached on 13th April 1955.  There was no obstruction to the traffic as stated by Shri Chitale, but in the meantime R. S. S. men turned up and they wanted to discuss with me.  Government ought to take steps to prevent people from interfering in preaching.  When the appointment of the Committee, as originally constituted, was announced there was a general feeling that Christian preaching was being prohibited.  The police also prevented us from preaching at Ganjipura saying that the Government have appointed the Committee.

It is my definite and firm opinion that money should be received from foreign countries for any purpose which is going to benefit the Indians and Government.  As a result of an accident I was taken to the Medical College Hospital on the 12th March 1952.  That accident was deliberately caused as I happened to be a Christian.  I was shown as Brahmin in the hospital.  I corrected it as Christian.  When Dr. Balkrishna came he asked me the reasons for correcting it.  Then I was sent to the Mental Hospital and I was there for ten days.  Then Dr. Dube certified that I was quite alright.  I interpret this as a pressure or harassment.

To Mr. S. K. Deshpande, Pleader-

(Note.-Mr. Deshpande congratulated Shri Tiwari in that he considers himself . still to be a Hindu and a patriot, even though he believes in Christ.) There is nothing like Hindu religion.. There is Hindu culture.  I read Gita and Puran.  I read Ved commentary.  My Ishta Deveta is Parameshwar and there is only one God.  The Hindus say that they tolerate worship of any God but then in practice they do not observe it.  I have no faith in the Cross as a symbol of anything, such as, reality, truth, etc., The Cross stands for man’s endeavour to rise to divine life by sacrifice.  A Cross whether of wood or stone or metal, has no value unless its reality is reflected in the mind.  I do not regard the Cross as idolatory because I do not respect the Cross, as it is represented.  I am not conversant with any of the beliefs of the Roman Catholics.  It is my belief and I preach that salvation can be had only through Jesus Christ.  There is nobody in the world besides him whose name is given by God.  This is according to the Bible.  Nobody opposed me saying that there can be salvation through other sources.  Before conversion I was committing thefts from my house and used to spend money in vices.

(The Chairman brought to the notice of Mr. Tiwari a letter written by his father, dated the 20th July 1954, in which he complained that his only son Mr. Tiwari was induced to become Christian by the Mungeli Mission in the hope of being married and sent to America.)

I came across Miss Chobe at the.  Railway Station, Bilaspur.  It was Miss Chobe who gave a copy of the Bible and I read it.  What my father says in the application is absolutely false.  He wrote that letter at the instance of Vishwanath Gupta.  “Jai Hind” paper belonged to a Trust in which Seth Govinddas was a member.
 

Name.-A. Shriniwas Rao.
Age.-47.
Occupation.-Advocate.
Address.-Nagpur.

Conversion affects the solidarity of the nation and national existence is undermined.

I give instances, Eastern Bengal and Pakistan have come into existence as a result of conversion. Jharkhand is a Christian movement, so also I am afraid there will be a demand for a separate State in Travancore-Cochine.  The safeguards that I suggest-

1. That no minors should be allowed to be converted and attempt to convert a minor should be prohibited by legislation.  Even if the father happens to be a Christian the minors should never be allowed to be converted, from one religion to another-.

“Conversions should be registered on the lines of section 14 of the Central Provinces and Berar Public Safety Act, 1947 (Act No. 38 of 1947)”.

In the Managing Committees of mission schools, hospitals and hostels there should be non-Christian members with one nominee of the Government.  There should be at least a nominee of the Government and there should be no religious teachings in schools.  That may be given in colleges.  Ramayan and Mahabharat are not religious books, but they are useful for giving moral training.

I cite the instance of Kashmir.  The influx of foreign Missionary personnel and money should be stopped except on Government level.  This restriction should be put through Government.

To Mr. A. B. Shinde, Advocate of Jabalpur-

I am a witness on behalf of the Hindu Mahasabha.  Mahabharat is a historical book, and Ramayan consists of high ideals depicted in it.  Ram is believed to be God by the Hindus.  Ramayan is a poetic history of Ram. I do not know any historical developments in Buddhism and Jainism.  By prehistoric I mean before Christ.  I would not recommend Bhagwad Geeta to be taught in schools, because religion cannot be taught in school.  I do not know any Jain institution which is exclusively Jain.  If the constitution gives liberty to minority to have their own institutions then it should be amended if there are no safeguards in the constitution.  I am not against the import of milk-powder to India.  The opinions I have stated represent the views of the Nagar Mahasabha, which I represent.  I hold that conversion affects the loyalty of the people, i.e., from Hinduism to Christianity and Islam and vice versa.  It is because the Muslims and Christians do not regard India as their holy land that their loyalty to the land is not to be depended on.  English people’s holy land is Jerusalem.
 

Name.-Shri Donald G. Groom.
Occupation.-Warden, Friends Rural Centre 
Address.-Rasulia (Hoshangabad).
Age.-40.
Caste.-Christian.

I consider myself as Missionary but I may not be accepted as a Missionary in the normal use of the term. My work at Rasulia is such that it would not normally be classified as Missionary work.

I came to India in 1940 as a member of the Society of Friends.  I had previously been working in France and Spain carrying out relief work.  When I came to Rasulia and came to identify myself with the village people I discovered that the greatest contribution I should make was more completely to identify myself with the village people because the need for general improvement in conditions in life of the people was something in which I could make a contribution.  My concern for service in India which developed in England came to take the shape of the desire to share my life with village people as, completely as possible.  This led to work at Rasulia centre; to building up of a programme of work in the field of education, health, agriculture, cooperative, etc.  All of the villagers are non-Christians.  The idea of conversion to Christianity is foreign to the whole conception of sharing the life of the people. I became quickly a student rather than a teacher to learn the people’s mind in which I live.  In the Hoshangabad town and Itarsi town there are Christians but in villages the people are non-Christians.  In the centre there are some Christians.  We have no preaching programme.

Our idea is not to build up a Church.  The friends came to India and Hoshangabad for relief work about 60 years ago.  Since 1935 Rasulia has become a centre of rural uplift work where both the English and the Indians work together.  We feel it was a call to us to bring people of various religions together and nationalities too and make them cooperate with each other and come to deeper understanding.  The depth of fellowship is much deeper now than it would be if we were to give the impression that we have mind to convert the people.  Spiritually also we come to closer understanding of each other.  A Hindu would show his Bhagwad Geeta to explain to us the idea of forgiveness and vice versa.  If there is a conversion of a Christian or a Hindu it would he from a deep sense of call or conviction and it can take place either way.  My experience is that on either side there is a desire to understand each other, but not to convert which would lead to a conflict among us which is not tolerated by us.  My position on this matter is not shared by all friends but has been accepted by many friends officially and personally. I believe this is true to the basic principle of quaker faith.  There are friends in India who engage in evangelistic work, because of differences of conviction in the society of friends in America.  They do not approve of the service programme of other friends.  The friends operated a Mission hospital of 100 beds in Itarsi.  It became impossible to provide adequate financial support for such an important hospital and arrangement was made by which friends, the Local Government, the Municipality combined to administer the hospital for the past two years.  It has been used by the Community Project and Friends continued to give financial support.  Our friends felt that such a hospital could be run efficiently from 7,000 miles away and finance adequately for the needs of the area.  While the hospital was administered by the friends the whole staff was Christian and during the five years of the transitional period by community project the same staff remains. Now the Medical Superintendent has to retire under the rule and a non-Christian Medical Superintendent is brought.  It was the basic principle of friends that there should be no proselytization carried on in hospital and I have never heard.  The nurses had private prayers.  We wanted to get non-Christian nurses to be trained in our institution but it was difficult to get them in the circumstances mentioned.  I have no specific information about allegations of Mission hospitals being used as means of conversion. I do not approve of humanitarian service being used for conversion.  It is the presence of the medical man which has religious conviction which will influence the service and the treatment at the hospital, but criticism has been levelled against both Christian and non-Christian doctors, The religious question is irrelevant.  The spiritual nature of a medical man certainly influences the efficiency of treatment.  I do not believe in any organised society for preaching to the patients in the hospitals or in the words.

Our work here is financed by English and American Government and public there for social service projects.

We have a basic school at Rasulia.  All the teachers are Hindus.  Religious instruction is imparted in this way that the birth day of Ram, Krishna, Mohammad, Christ Jesus and their teachings conveyed to the pupil so that they may understand the principles of religion.

We are carrying on other activities such as relief centres, adult education, agriculture, dairying, health programme through Kasturba health centres.

An aboriginal who remains in the village and goes on getting training remains in the village environment; whereas the Christian aboriginal enters into environment in which his life in the village becomes estranged.  This is an unfortunate thing which happens, because of the mental and environmental change taking place.

As a Christian I do not think that to ensure world peace the whole world should be Christianised but I think that greater hope for world peace if people following different religions understand each other better.

Conversion is a thing which no body can induce by talk, because it is an inspiration received from God and it does not involve his becoming a member of the Church on the other hand proselytisation means that one man feels that his faith is superior to other man’s faith and he should share his belief and he becomes a member of a Church. The inevitable end of proselytisation is that he becomes member of the Church whether he be a Muslim, Christian or Hindu.  This may be due to human weakness.  We friends do not baptise at all.  During history many have attempted to deny us as Christians.

To Mr. A. B. Shinde-

The Mid India yearly meeting of the Society Friends was and is represented by the Mid India Representative Council.  Many years ago, I was asked to attend the meeting of the National Christian Council as a representative of the Friends Society Council.

A church is an assembly of people with certain identity of faith and conviction. I am a Christian but do not accept any dogma. I believe in many of the teachings of Bible.  Some of the teachings of the Bible which I do not believe.  The World Council of Churches do not accept the Friends as full members.  But our representatives do attend the world conference and they did attend the Evanston conference.  We have representatives in the United Nations also. I believe that the Bible has a special message to me. (Asked if he did not feel the urge to share the message of the Bible with the people.) The witness said, that he would speak to the needs of the people and if he had a special message he would give it in a language that would be understood by the people. I have never come across any occasion on which I felt it necessary to bring in the extranious message of the Old Testament or the New Testament to meet the needs of the people, but I have shared the message of the Bible as it come to me through spirit in terms that the people could understand.  I have had several people coming to me asking for the message of the Bible and for conversion but I always found that there were extranious motives behind the request. I had no case of any one coming to me desiring conversion as a direct result of my service.  But colleagues of mine have asked for better enlightenment regarding my faith because of my association with them.  The scheduled caste and scheduled tribes people responded more to our work than other caste people.  The out-caste feel the need of our service so that he may have an opportunity to advance but our service is meant for all.  There was no otter Hindu or Muslim or Government working agency working when we began our work.  The centre was started in 1935.  My centre operates 20 villages and  I never found any particular body carrying on this work.  A representative of the friends came to India to enquire into the possibilities of any mission or other group taking over the hospital without success.  It was at the instance of our group. I differ from other Missionaries as my religious beliefs are generally unacceptable and my approach to village work is different.  When an aboriginal becomes a Christian be is estranged from his community because he enters into different pattern of life which I regard as unfortunate.  An aboriginal has a culture of his own, a pattern of life and it is unfortunate that he should abandon that pattern of life as a result of conversion.

To Mr. S. K. Deshpande-

If after becoming a Christian, one were to live and share along with his brotheren, he would not be shunned by the society because he had become a Christian but it is he who becomes Christian unfortunately feels that he can not mix up with that society and, therefore, he becomes estranged from the society.

Question.- You had said that it was very unfortunate that an aboriginal when he becomes a Christian begins to think that his history is the history of the English after conversion.

Answer.- I do not think that this is general.

To Mr. A. B. Shinde-

By history I mean sense of identity with the Missionary, his life and history, but I do not think that his loyalty is changed.

(Note.-Shri Groom says he would file a written statement.)

Dated the 27th September 1955.
 

Name-Donald G. Groom.
Address-Friends’ Rural Centre, Rasulia, Hoshangabad, M. P.

I am convinced, as a result of 15 years’ experience in India, that there is a place for Western people living and serving in India as Christians.  I personally dislike to use a label because labels cause confusion.  It is not clear what a “Christian” is, because those who are supposed to speak with authority as Christians differ in their interpretation of its meaning.  Even so, there is no objection to a Western person, as a Christian, living in India and witnessing to his or her faith.  The difficulty arises where an attempt is made to draw others from their faiths and persuade them to adopt the Christian faith, and when means are used to achieve this which are unrelated to the spiritual purpose which a change of faith necessarily involves.  I don’t think anyone will deny the possibility and the rightness in some circumstances of conversion.  A faith, if held strongly, has to be expressed outwardly either in words or in action, and when a faith is so expressed some will inevitably be influenced and wish to adopt that faith.  This should not necessarily divorce a person from his culture or heritage, but it often does because the conversion is usually followed by some outward rite of acceptance of new associations and allegiances demanded by the group to which the convert is drawn.  This is an expression of the weakness of the human vehicle by which religion is brought to bear on the lives of men and women.

Personally, I have never been interested in converting another in the sense of trying to draw him into my set of ideas, beliefs and associations.  There are certain principles of life which I often find it necessary to witness to because I believe that they are fundamental to human growth, but in such witness I find that I am one with people of all faiths, and with people without religious sectarian convictions.  The world would be at a great loss if people of sincere conviction ceased to witness to those convictions by word and deed, but such witness brings all sincere people into one spiritual fellowship which cuts right through sectarian barriers.  Any action which stems from the idea that this truth is ours and any who wish to share in it must join our society, is a hindrance to true development as all possessiveness is.

The question of loyalty is an important one. I believe that a strongly held religious faith does temper one’s sense of loyalty, because there grows within the heart of men a sense of loyalty to principles which have their source in God’s Truth rather than in the conceptions of men and States.  Such a loyalty should be considered a national asset because it brings into affairs of nations concepts which alone can lead them into paths of peace and well-being.  The danger lies in an acceptance of a religious faith which has extra-national loyalties by people who cannot reach a full understanding of the higher spiritual loyalties and are liable to be non-contributive or even harmful to national aspirations.  A religion preached by Western people, the outward signs and historical associations of which, are also non-Indian, can have an influence on an unenlightened person which may lead him to have anti-national thoughts.

In the Friends’ Rural Centre, Rasulia, of which I have been the Director for twelve years, there has been a conscious attempt to bring into a fellowship of service people of different religions and nationalities.  The Christian and the Hindu, caste and outcaste, have worked and lived together and have grown spiritually together.  Because of the complete absence of desire to change a person’s religious affiliation, there has been a greater desire to understand one another and the deeper aspects of ones life.  Four-fifths of our staff are non-Christians but that is immaterial because our objective is to carry out a concern for the welfare of the village people and not to classify people under their religious affiliations.

I feel that no one from the West who lives a normal Christian life there, would deny that the spirit of our work is anything but Christian. I hope that a Muslim and a Hindu would feel that the spirit of the work is according to the best Muslim and Hindu traditions.  I feel sure that within such a setting a Westerner finds a very warm welcome from India and he is not expected to be anything but the best that he is capable of being and do anything for which he has not a genuine calling.

The spirit of antagonism and suspicion between people of different religions is very harmful.  It is not a climate in which the followers of any religion can make a positive and true contribution.  All should try to remove this antagonism and suspicion, that the contribution of each can be truly assessed and brought into the channels of Indian life.  Conversion or reconversion under any sort of pressure is unspiritual and counter to the best of the culture of this great country.

Name-Shri Y. Surender Paul.
Father’s name-R. Paul.
Caste-Christian.
Age-45.
Occupation-Serving in the Mid India Christian Council, Social Education Organiser for Madhya Pradesh.
Address-Gass Memorial Centre, Raipur.

I was an active member of the Congress in Madhya Bharat for 10 years and I am still in the Congress.  In last November I was at Shirki about 4 miles from Basana and I found the relations between Christians and non-Christians were strained.  The Hindus of the village boycotted the Christians and some of them (Christians) were not allowed to purchase things from Hindu shops in the village.  The Christians belong to the Mennonite Church.  Last November some one came from Delhi and he said that he was deputed from Delhi and the people might have misunderstood him as may have been sent from Government.  He began to say that Christians insult our Gods and religion.  Some Hindus approached the Christians for subscription to the Ganesh festival and the tension arose because the Christians declined to subscribe as it was not a Christian festival.  They said that whenever they had their Christian festival they do not go to other people asking for money.  I have personal knowledge of this incident.  I heard reports from Sagar district about the harassment of the Christians by the Hindus.  The trouble in Shirko was reported to the police but it appears that no action has been taken.

As regards the methods used for conversion we have to leave whatever might have been done by Missionaries before 1947.  Since Independence the attitude of them has changed not in all but in most cases.  The bulk of the amount which is received from Home Board is used for the maintenance of the hospitals and schools and a little fraction is being devoted to evangelistic work.  By this I mean that the money goes to the churches where they have to support pastors whose business is like priest, purohits who look after the Christian community.  Some money goes to the preachers.  I cannot say whether in comparison with the past state of affairs it is more or less.  The salary of a preacher varies according to his educational qualification.  If a man is B.A., B.T., his salary may vary from Rs. 100 to Rs. 150 per month.  In some churches there is a rule that nobody can be a pracharak and pastor unless he is educated in theology.  Conversion to Christianity in no way affects the loyalty of a person. I was a Christian and I had joined the Independence movement in 1946 which was going on in the State.  I was running a hotel in Biora in Rajgarh district in Madhya Bharat and a provision store and a soda water factory and in my absence two employees of the political department removed all the articles in my shop and I suffered a loss of Rs. 24,000.  Provincial Congress Committee appointed a Committee on the direction of the All India Congress Committee and they declared it to be a political case.  This occurred in 1946.  The Diwan of the State asked the patel to remove crops from my 25 Bighas of land and took possession of the land. I have filed a suit in Biora tahsil court which is still pending.  Last year, Government delivered the land to me but I was deprived of the land by the Patel.  Hence I had to file the suit. I cannot say that it was due to my being a sufferer or Christian.  What I say is that the Christians may put up with all these hardships but will remain loyal to our State and our Government. I cannot give the name regarding harassment of Christians by some officials in Sagar.  It was a stray talk when I gathered this information.  In 1950 the Government of India invited an American psychologist Mr. Mc. Fee through UNESCO to know the reason of tension between Hindus, Muslims and Refugees.  He published his report in the book “In the Minds of Men”.  In my opinion the present tension between Hindus and Christians ought to be made a subject of psychological study.  This I think is the best way to deal with the problem.

To Mr. Munje, Advocate-

(Mr. Munje represents R. S. S. and Hindu community in general.)

Question.- Was not the tension between Hindus and Mohamedans solved by partition ?

Answer.-There is no comparison between that tension and present tension.

Question.-Any reason to say for not such comparison.

Answer.-The reason is that the Muslims demanded the partition of the country and the Christians surrendered the right even in separation.

The Muslims began to demand a separate State under the instigation of Britishers.  Because in some parts of India there may be a strong Christian minority you cannot assume that Christians will demand a separate State.  There may be a few Christians who may have any political demand but they do not do it being Christian party but as a political party.  According to me this tension between Hindus and Christians will not be solved by partition because we know the conditions in Pakistan.

Even if the Christians will be in majority they will riot demand a separate State.

I do not think that even ignorant Christians if backed by foreign Missionaries will demand a separate State.  I will condemn Nagas, whether Christians or non-Christians, if they want an independent State for themselves.

The 27th September 1955.
 

Name-Shri Dayashankar Bailey.
Father’s name-Ganpat Bailey.
Caste-Hindu.
Age-64 years.
Occupation-Accountant in Ramgarh Electric Supply